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Tom: I'm now recording me drunkenly eating pizza.

Sam: I'm so glad we're still doing this tonight. I can tell it's gonna be a standard at this little round. There's

Tom: one thing you can guarantee some. I'm gonna be professional. Isn't just guaranteed professionalism with

Sam: whatever you want. Your face on your research notes.

Tom: Just covering crumbs on pieces of havoc are doing that fell off.

Sam: It is nothing middle class about this podcast at all, which is to blue collar guys e eating avocados and eating avocados and kin. Walk. Nothing says I've been out on the razz like smashed avocado. You'd be I'm gonna have to get out. Load a little, burbs. Wake up. It's rolling now.

Tom: We're sorry. Fucked already every night. Okay?

Sam: Yeah. On hello, audience and welcome to Episode four Of that was Genius, a weekly history podcast in which two blokes on different sides of the world amaze each other with a story about history. And this week, we're talking about historic tinder dates slash romances, slash Love matches are recording this The day after Valentine's Day. Did you get laid? Tom set the time. You don't have to answer that. Set

Tom: the tone, Sam. I like it. That's a nice breaker, isn't it?

Sam: Certainly is. Tom, by the way, has been drinking. Yes, I'm sure the intro to our podcast will have made that abundantly clear. Have you found this week's challenge? Dob?

Tom: It's been good. It has been good. I've gone for different era, Sam. I've done Greek. I've done Roman on. I've done Viking, so I decided I'd go. Tudor

Sam: Oh, so you're going forward? I'm regressing. You go. I've started. I've got right on right fucking back. I've gone back to 5300 bc 2700 BC, in fact,

Tom: and edit the two attempts out and then we'll go to the

Sam: O. Uh, this is gonna be awful. It's no gonna wrestle getting

Tom: Sam. I don't care. So 2700 bc And who's this?

Sam: I'm going to talk about the love story off Ishtar and Tambor's

Tom: who Very nice.

Sam: A k a. My cottage cheese brings all the girls to the yard a k a summer lovin right, Excellent. And if that's not a teacher, that's gonna keep people listening. I don't know what is

Tom: Absolutely It's curious teaser.

Sam: And what are you talking about today, Tom.

Tom: I'm gonna talk about the wedding of Prince Arthur of Whales and Katherine of arrogant. And that's nothing to do with arrogant son of Arathorn either. It's a place in Spain. I've learned. So the wedding of Prince Arthur and Catherine, Have you heard about that wedding sound?

Sam: I've never heard of that wedding. How? My head of Katherine of Aragon, though

Tom: you have. Indeed. And that's because Katherine of Arrogant was the first wife of Henry the eighth. But we will come onto this. It's an interesting story. It would be a bit cliche of me to go for someone of Henry the eights wives. You know, that's quite predictable when we're talking about the topic of romance. So I tried to go. I tried to take a different angle, Sam. I went for Prince Arthur who was Henry's older brother. But I won't tell you any more. So he decided he was gonna go first.

Sam: Well, you know what? Fucking we usually flip a coin, But this week I don't even have my pink tape measure to hand.

Tom: Okay? I just put my pizza in the fridge is well. We could use the peace

Sam: s O today. We're gonna flip. We're gonna flip a tram ticket. Nice goats. That reaching, reaching whatever. I have a hand. Would you like the side that says off peak adult return? Would you like the side that says thank you for traveling with Metrolink? Oh,

Tom: I would like to I would like to thank you for traveling with Metrolink.

Sam: Sweet. Okay, I'm flipping the ticket. You're not going to hear this.

Tom: I did hear something.

Sam: You had something excellent. You win.

Tom: Fantastic, right? Does that mean I go first? I'll go first, shall I, Sam? Because I'm gonna run.

Sam: Go on, run out

Tom: of steam in half. Now, before I get started on my two to tell

Sam: you you're gonna be asleep in your seat. Yeah, exactly. So bad. Dad.

Tom: Given nudge. Give Granddad a nudge before I start on my tail. Sam, I would like to actually just go back to something we discussed in the last episode, which was the highlight of the episode, which was big break. Now I don't think you would have believed that big break could be quite so interested for start. We need to correct something. We got wrong. It actually ran from 1991 to 2000 and one. That's not the interesting, but that's definitely not definitely not the interest.

Sam: You're not wrong, Tom. You know, wrong

Tom: thing. Interesting, but that this is as someone who enjoys music. Sam, you're gonna like this now. The song is actually called the Snooper Song. Do you know where it came from? San. Did it come from snooker? But there's definitely a connection there that most of us conflict can make. They actually came from a musical based on a Lewis Carroll poem called Hunting Off the Snark. Really? Absolutely. And it was a poem. So the musical was written by a chap called Mike Batt, and in 1986 it played the Barbican with the London Symphony Orchestra. It was a costumed concert, and this just gets even weirder sound

Sam: Mike back that rings a bell or am I gonna spoil your thunder by

Tom: you? You come later, just in case you are gonna spoil my thunder.

Sam: First time anyone's ever said

Tom: Yeah, Give me Give me another two minutes. There was an album So shortly after the musical, there was an album released with songs on. Listen to this This is some of the artists that were on this album. Roger Don't Tree From the Who Art Garfunkel, George Harrison. John Hurt was Narrator and Cliff Richard. The snooker song was performed by a captain Sensible. Have you ever heard a captain sensible? Vaguely. Vaguely so. Yet that would you believe that a theme tune to Big Break had such a It's such an interesting history. There you go. I was quite surprised when I found that out.

Sam: So the big break theme tune was written by Mike back. Absolutely. You know what else he wrote?

Tom: No. No, I don't.

Sam: Mike Batt is responsible for the warm balls. Is he really? He wrote the wobbles theme to

Tom: Well, I never Would you like to sing it, Sam? For people who've never heard the one more steam shoot?

Sam: Um, remember your home boo. Remember, Member Member one Boom, boom, boom. You are a little something like that. I can't remember most of the lyrics

Tom: Shoot for I was carried away to a beautiful place there. And when you stop, just snap straight back to where I am.

Sam: Haiti's hate is

Tom: okay. So yeah, that was the big break theme to that. Sorry to delay me telling you my story of research.

Sam: All right, I know you're still trying to find your notes,

Tom: so let me get onto my story. So I've already alluded to the fact that I'm gonna talk about the wedding of Prince Arthur of Wales and Katherine of Arrogant. Let's have a few facts on Prince Arthur of Wales. He was the first son of Henry, the seventh of England, and Elizabeth of York. On. As many of you will know, Henry, the seventh ended the War of the Roses at the Battle of Bosworth, where he defeated Richard the third, which we all know is Copley rhyming slang for a turd. So he was desperate. Henry, the seventh was desperate to unite the house of Lancaster in the House of York after what was close to 1/2 a century that the latter half of the 15th century of almost constant warring a very unpleasant period in English history.

Sam: People from Lancaster and people from Yorkshire still hate each other. To this day, the most popular T in Britain is is York City or one of the most popular teas and people in Lancashire refused to drink it.

Tom: Interestingly, Sam that the Houses of Lancaster and Houses of the House of York, they have very little to do with City of Lancaster in the city of York. So a lot of the lands held by the House of Lancaster, for example. I think we're in the well in Wales and likewise with the House of York. They had a lot of land in Wales, so actually it is very It's actually quite unrelated to the cities, believe it or not s. So that's interesting. It's very confusing interest, in fact, through there. So Henry, the seventh is very, very keen to tie up the lines of succession to the throne and just hopefully lead to a period of peace in British history and also secure his position on throne. So his first son is Prince Arthur, As you know who is named after the mythical king offer on an interest. In fact, I found out I was researching Sam. Do you know which of King Arthur's knights designed his round table? No, it was circumference. You owe a blindside.

Sam: You Excellent. I wasn't expecting that, but I'm glad it arrives

Tom: that good. Excellent. My Valentine's gift to you. Prince Arthur of Wales is the first son of Henry the seventh, and Elizabeth of York is born in 14 86. And for you and I sound this is quite interesting. He was born it since Women's Priory in Winchester. Upside Winchester Cathedral. Callousness, salmon. I went to college in Winchester. And no, we didn't go to Winchester College, which is an internationally famous posh boys school. We didn't go to that when we were about parents. Weren't wealthy enough. Eso

Sam: No. We only bummed for fun, not traditional.

Tom: But as in 14 89 Little Prince Arthur is made night off the bath. How cool is that, Sam Knight of the Bath.

Sam: That would have been one way for my parents to get me to get in the bath when I was a child.

Tom: Exactly. He was only three years old, and he gets made Knight of the Bath. I mean, how brilliant is that? As a title for three year old, he would have loved it.

Sam: You could use that. They couldn't because you got kids. You could name one of them, sir. Eat his broccoli on the other. One lady does her homework. You have to. You have lawful responsibility.

Tom: We'll have a whole ceremony around the eating of the broccoli, which he has to. He has to go through to become a knight of the broccoli. So, knight of the bath at the age of three. Fantastic. And it made me think, Sam, if you were in light of the bath, what other nights would you have around your get out? You could have a round table, couldn't you? I thought of a couple which I thought were quite good. I would have, sir quack a lot. Which would be a rubber duck.

Sam: Yeah.

Tom: Yeah. And then I thought, Officer flannel wash bottom.

Sam: It's that beautiful

Tom: is to other. It's two other possible knights of the bath infesting the air wasn't really an order. So it wasn't an order of knights like like the order of the Garter, for example, on what it was Maura about was a sort of elaborate ceremony for the investiture of the Prince of Wales. And because he was the Prince of Wales, I think he had to just go through this ceremony which involved

Sam: Lord Bubbly phone.

Tom: You know what? Bubbly farts, a quack a lot and So it's a flannel walk.

Sam: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That was far too long of a gap, but I just wasn't ready to let that go.

Tom: You can imagine the riding into battle. It's so so. It's kind of lost it anyway. So the Knights of the Bath, the bath element of it, is a sort of pure effect purification process, as we know, with Christianity

Sam: as as baths, usually

Tom: as it appears pure, absolute purification of one's crotch and armpits. Yes. And, you know, in Christianity, baptism is a sort of pure purification ceremony. Likewise, to become a knight of the bath. You you were washed in a bath by more senior nights.

Sam: Oh, yeah,

Tom: home a

Sam: rattle chestnut. But

Tom: I'm erotic, isn't it? I'm just I'm picturing a knight in full armor, you know, trying to get into a little bath, and it's just it's just lob. It wouldn't be convenient, would it? You know, I would imagine the rusty chain mail on the, you know, flooding your codpiece. It just wouldn't be very comfortable. I think it into bath and foot in full armor.

Sam: That's what the brown staining in the bath is. It's just rust. The chain mail coming off

Tom: Jane Mo in 14 91. Prince Arthur has made a Knight of the Garter, which I think is just showing off if we go back a week to our previous podcast with poor old beyond the unguarded who was so devoid of garters that he was named Bjorn the Unguarded. And here we have Little Prince Wales at the age of Walk five. And he's a fucking knight of the garter. That pompous little

Sam: gets. 500 years is a long time. There is no, I mean, garter technology has increased 10 volume in the period between the unguarded and the guard.

Tom: You're probably right. It's probably easier to get hold of a good garter.

Sam: It's much like the car. Yes, if you look 100 years ago, who had a car? Yep. You know, we were all Ivan the young car.

Tom: So we ought to the prince out that now I'll get I'll get on to his death because this will be a bit of background information for why Katherine of Arrogant then got married to Henry the eighth. So he died in 15 02 of sweating sickness at the age of 15 Let's do a bit of information about Catherine of arrogance if he was born in 14 85. So she was a year older than Prince Arthur. And she was the daughter of Isabella, of Castile and Ferdinand of Arrogant. And they were the monarchs of Spain, which was one of the big players big, powerful kingdom. Now Catherine of Aragon was actually the third cousin of Henry, the seventh on the fourth cousin of Elizabeth of York. It is a

Sam: bit incestuous, but by the standards of royal families of Europe, that is about as far apart as you could possibly have gotten. That might as well be a blind date,

Tom: absolutely, and to be honest, and when you look into more detail, you realize why. And it was because Henry, the seventh, was so keen to tie up his lines of succession, so played. There was a John role here in this arranged marriage. Not only was it on alliance with a powerful European country, but it was also kind of tying up that side of succession dispute. This is quite interesting. Time on a little bit more of a serious subject for anyone who ever feels like they want to doubt the value of Western medicine. Listen to what it was like to try and give birth as Katherine of arrogant in the early 16th century. So this is someone who would have had access to the best physicians in the entire land. 15 09 miscarried A girl, 15 10 son died after 52 days. 15 13. Stillborn child 15 14. Stillborn child 15 15 Mary the first is born 15. 17 a miscarriage. 15 18 Child dies after only a few hours. That's what Childbirth

Sam: G.

Tom: Yeah, that's what childbirth has been like for the majority of human history. Sam s O Anyone who fancies criticized in Western medicine Fuck off back to the Tudor period and then try and of your children so

Sam: that they've been told

Tom: yes s Oh, that's poor old Katherine of arrogant. Anyway, let's go on to the romantic element of this. So prince, after of Wales and Katherine of arrogant are betrothed to each other. There's a treaty of Medina Campo, which is in 14 89 when the two of them runny or four years old on. It's an agreement that the two would be married when they become off canonical age. And the Darius set a 200,000 crowns, which equates to probably five or 6,000,000 pounds in modern money. So big dowry there in 14 97 to 2 of the trough by proxy, which apparently was quite common in this period for wealthy individuals of royalty so obviously betrayed by proxy just means that someone else turned up on their behalf. And in 14 19 Hein

Sam: So he went through the ceremony with someone else. I

Tom: don't know. I don't think they did that. I don't think they had an elaborate ceremony. I think someone else just sort of signed the papers. Perhaps

Sam: right now that makes that makes more sense. It would be really awkward. Otherwise,

Tom: yeah. Oh, who use, say, 14 99. They're married by proxy. In this sort of period, when it becomes clear that the two of them get married, we get some love letters between the two of them. If there's anything sound that that melts my heart, it's the love letters of snotty teenage spoiled brats.

Sam: It's chewed a sexting,

Tom: too, too, too sexy. So I'm gonna try and read out this

Sam: splendid source. He portrayed.

Tom: Have you seen some of the portrait? So, Sam, I mean, they're not flattering, you know. It's no Instagram. You know where people take 15 different 15 attempts at a photo, and then they find the one that makes him look like a supermodel. No, I think the portrait artist had one attempt. So here's a letter from Prince Arthur to Katherine. Andi, I'm gonna read it in the manner that I imagine Prince Arthur would have would have read it himself. I cannot tell you one earnest desire. I fail to see, Your Highness. And how vexatious to me is this pro castor notion about your coming home soon. Is it

Sam: supposed to be a voice breaks?

Tom: That's my voice. That's me doing a teenager. I thought

Sam: at least her in a Welsh. I

Tom: thought that was clear. So sorry. So having just criticized my attempt at some of the voice breaking your now adding the complexity of a Welsh accent to me, are you

Sam: Well, it wasn't getting worse.

Tom: You get a good look at her Sunday.

Sam: I don't see No. This is very much like our Vikings from last week's live between Earth

Tom: and the Ricin for toys may reap their proper fruit. That didn't sound very well. She did it

Sam: no, anyway, that went very Indian. It

Tom: didn't go quite Indian tennis.

Sam: Yes, we really need to stop trying to do accent.

Tom: I don't think we don't think it's comedy Gold, Sam. I think it's excellent. I think it's about the best part of the podcast. 50 No. One. The two of them actually get married properly. So we have a fantastic Siri's of events in the UK When Catherine comes over, they meet for the first time in a small political dog, Masefield, in Hampshire, and you would not believe what happens there. The two of them they meet and they think they were gonna be at a talking Latin to each other, but you would not believe it. They've been taught different pronunciations. Aladdin. You would not believe

Sam: Oh hash

Tom: tag Tudor royalty problems, eh? So they can actually understand each other,

Sam: he says. Potatoes, you say potato. Let's call the whole thing off yet.

Tom: Oh, dear, I don't know. That was a bit of a disappointment for them. Catherine then rides on to London. She enters London riding on a mule, apparently alongside the future. Henry the eighth.

Sam: That's very Spanish.

Tom: Yes, I suppose it is, isn't it?

Sam: I mean, it's not at all. They were quite good horseman, but I think it's nice and stereotypically racist to say that she arrived at the dock

Tom: minister on a straw donkey with a sombrero,

Sam: drinking a bottle of it unidentifiable local spirit.

Tom: It it dressed like the man from Del Monte. So she enters London riding on a mule, which, which is it doesn't seem to me like the most.

Sam: Why, I

Tom: don't know. There must be some symbolism behind it anyway. And that's just a shitload of pageantry. Basically, this wine flowing free leaf, The people of London. There's entertainment at the local castles and it suppose they have the wedding. Catherine exits the bishop's palace. She walks along the blue carpet.

Sam: I'm sorry. That was anything that involves the word Bishop. I immediately just just something that's throws innuendos into my head. Exiting the bishop's palace is definitely you visit for taking a shit. Yeah, Father, You ready? The service begins in 10 minutes. Don't worry. Just accepting the Bishop's Palace. I'll be right with you. Have you got a match? So

Tom: Katherine takes a massive pre wedding shit three, then walks along at the blue carpet towards some pools. And she stressed him. I'm trying to bring us back on

Sam: track. You could do this. I believe in you.

Tom: And she's dressed in white satin embroidered with pearls and gold thread. And here's a little interested one for people who were interested in the history of dressmaking, which is very few people. She had a farthingale under her dress, which was very unusual in England. I think it was one of the first times this had been seen in the UK, which is like It's like a hoop underneath your dress that gives it that shape. So can you imagine? Can you remember your pictures of sort of a

Sam: poofy like a poofy? It makes

Tom: it poofy. I think that's the term that's used in the fashion industry poofy, and she wore a veil when she had long. She wore her hair long, which apparently was a sign of virginity. So they walk along a raised walkway in supports Cathedral that's hundreds of feet long on, which just makes it easier for people to see them on. That's gotta read carpet on it with gold nails and fine wall trim and all sorts of fancy stuff there. Tapestry. It sounds very swanky. Think no expenses spared. Here they're tapestries, all on the walls, depicting simp symbolic sort of events. And I think there's a lot of King Arthur themes on these on these tapestries. From all accounts, Arthur also was in white satin.

Sam: An equally beautiful dress.

Tom: Absolutely, And he had his farthingale. Absolutely. Andi Hee hee to presumably had done a massive exit.

Sam: Long hair, long hair. Yeah, yes, and that's it.

Tom: Onto the exit, the cathedral after the ceremony, which took about three hours, I think. And that's a giant mountain has been built, covered in precious metal, red roses, models of dragons. There are fountains of wine, many kings and queens. It just sounds like Lego land. It's just fantastic, their trumpets tooting and they have a feast at Lambeth Castle, I imagine is they go into Lamberth cars Well, they're probably doing the Lambeth Walk as they go there, so they have this feast at Lambeth Castle, and then the next day they get on a flotilla of 40 barges and they go up the Thames to Westminister, where they enjoy a week of jousting and banqueting. So it's a big deal. This very, very big events, like

Sam: quite a party. You're

Tom: absolutely massive event. We have the bedding ceremony sound. This is quite fun. So the bedding ceremony, I didn't realize this sort of thing existed. It's sort of referenced in Game of thrones isn't if you watch game of thrones? But there was a bedding ceremony where holy water was sprinkled on the bed. And then Catherine is unveiled and laid in bed by her sort of maids in waiting or some of the close attendants. And then Arthur is escorted by his mates on. This is the best bit, Sam. He's escorted by his mates who were playing vials and tab oars.

Sam: Yeah, just drummed into the room.

Tom: Absolutely. Just the sort of thing that gets me in the mood via lt's

Sam: a tab. There's gonna be some performance anxiety there, isn't there? Just got what he makes go. Uh,

Tom: yeah, absolutely. After one of the Mrs sprinkled his only water over the bed yet it sounds a bit like a stag do, doesn't it?

Sam: It does,

Tom: eh? So you got the bed it. They got the bedding ceremony. You right? I mean, the two of them. How old is this is this is 15 01 So they're both 15. 15 16 at the time, So you must be pretty intimidating. This first night in bed together is actually really very significant moment in Tudor history. And we'll come on to why Sir Anthony Willoughby says that the morning after Arthur addresses him and says, Willoughby, bring me a cup of ale for I have been this night in the midst of Spain. Oh, Dick ish comments might really Isn't it what you want? It's wet. Absolutely. But we hear from other sources, like a chap called Joanna Dig Amara and I quote Francisca de Cock Erez probably haven't pronounced that correctly. Who was in charge of dressing and undressing The queen and who she liked and confided in a lot was looking sad and telling the other ladies nothing had passed between Prince Arthur and his wife, which surprised everyone and made them laugh at him. It all sounds very embarrassing, very awkward to be on a scent.

Sam: So two very different accounts of the story there boys, as usual, being boys.

Tom: Exactly. And this is where it becomes significant sound when Arthur dies, which happens not long after they're married. So he dies in 50? No, to their married in 15. 01 were then, in a bit of a pickle, cause this perfect wedding that was supposed to build a really useful alliance with Spain and also tie up some of these lines of succession is fucked is gone down the pan because of an inconvenient death of Arthur. Selfish bastard, Buried rude of him in canonical law. You cannot marry the wife of a widow brother. I've got it actually comes from livid Leviticus. Sam, This is probably the first time I've ever read something from the Bible. And I quote, you must not have sexual relations with your daughter in law. She is your son's wife. You're not tow. Have sexual relations with her. You must not have sexual relations with your brother's wife. That would shame your brother. You must not have sexual relations with both the woman and her daughter. You are not to marry her son's daughter or daughters daughter and have sexual relations with her. They're close relatives. It is depraved. That's where Leviticus and the reason this is significant.

Sam: I feel like Leviticus and Pornhub would not get

Tom: off Nice. Definitely, no, I've seen you. I've seen some of the bloody post you've been putting up on Facebook over Valentine's Day.

Sam: Incidentally, on Facebook, search for that was genius on Instagram. That was genius on dawn Twitter. I can't remember that was genius podcast, I think. Good. Follow us.

Tom: Follow us anyway. Follows everywhere. You can follow us everywhere you confined us. It's suggested that Henry, the eighth, actually marry Catherine to keep that sort of alliance. In fact, I think it's even suggested at one point that Henry the seventh, marry Katherine of Arrogant. We know that Henry the Eights that married Katherine of Arrogant, that's that's the marriage that is more well known. But there's this huge amounts of debate around the legitimacy of this marriage because off what happened on that wedding night. So if Katherine of Arrogant and Arthur did get it on, then technically, the marriage was consecrated in canonical law on Henry. The eighth could not marry her if it wasn't consecrated in the two did not shag. Then she could marry Henry, the eighth Kid so you can see where he's become such a big issue. And it becomes an issue even later on when Henry, the eighth and Katherine of Arrogant have been married and a struggling so much to have a have a male heir, so they obviously had married first. But they've had all these problems with having other children. And so Henry, the eighth starts to believe that the marriage is actually doomed to failure. And he's been reading the Bible. And there's another quote from Leviticus. If a man lies with his uncle's wife, he has uncovered the nakedness of his uncle. They will bare their sin. They shall die childless. If a man marries her, his brother's wife, it is an active impurity. He has uncovered the nakedness of his brother. They shall be childless. So it becomes an issue for Henry the Eighth as well. Sir Henry. The eighth is now wondering What did they have sex? Because if they did, this is the reason why we're having so many problems. And this is one of the arguments he makes for getting on with Amber Lynn and giving a Given Katherine of arrogant the boot. So there you have it, Sam. That was the brief romance of Arthur of Wales and Katherine of Arrogant. Before she gets shipped over to Henry the eighth,

Sam: that's really interesting. So how long after the first husband died? Did she marry every

Tom: a good point? I think there's a There's a period after the death of Arthur were Katherine of Aragon Is value in the sort of the royal wedding market is significantly decreased because there is a suspicion that she has actually slept with Arthur? Well, absolutely. So there is a period where she's a kind of no value 21 by all accounts, she leads a reasonably miserable life in London for while almost as a hostage. And then eventually. Eventually, she clearly marries Henry that Henry the eighth. But I'm not sure how long it takes. I mean, I do have the information that 59 9 she first miscarried a girl. Them with Henry, the eight. So presumably it was within 10 years over.

Sam: Interesting abort. Catherine, as well

Tom: as she doesn't sound like she had a particularly enjoyable life. To be honest with you, Sam.

Sam: No, I mean, lady throughout history tend not to have done they don't tend to have enjoyed themselves fantastically along the way.

Tom: No, no, in fact, on that subject. And I think it's actually quite nice that we have done this topic because most of history is about males, isn't it? Let's be honest. The study of history is very male dominated, not just people study. No, I don't think that's the case anymore, but most that most of the things you study, a male dominated only in history. So it's nice to have a topic where we could actually get a 50 50 split, isn't

Sam: it? It certainly is. And I have to say that Segways very nicely into my story for today, because my story is all about powerful women, both probably fictional on dhe, vory riel. So today I'm going to talk about the story of the goddess Ishtar and King Tambor's on. We Are Gonna Go Right Right Back, Tom to the Very Dawn of Civilisation, about 2700 BC on the Sumerian empire, which was one of the very first human civilizations. It was based around what's modern day Iraq and Syria, and kind of bits of turkey between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers on dhe. We're also going to go back to the first ever known author who is the source for quite a lot of what we're gonna talk about today, who is called and I'm going to pronounce her name wrong. And that my bad And I apologized to her profusely for that n head. Wanna Okay, Who was a priest s Andi, prolific poet and writer. And actually, her stuff is really beautiful. If you read it back today, it was translated first translated in Victorian times. But it's it's really lovely what she writes. There is a bit of a disclaimer. So what I'm gonna talk about today because there's a few ancient poems and stories that we have scraps off that mentioned the guys we're gonna talk about today. But it was all written so long ago, and only a few lines of each one have survived, and it makes it really tricky to actually translate properly. For a start, the written language of Sumerian is really hard because it's kind of ensure hand where, unless you know the context, lots of words could mean exactly the same thing, but secondly and probably Maur importantly, whilst the Sumerians were really pretty good at writing things down or one of the first civilisations to do so. They were bloody useless of writing down the same things twice. So one story or one character in different sources, sometimes by the same person, can be completely

Tom: different. That doesn't make life very easy with

Sam: that out the way. Tambor's the hero of our story was either a king or a god or probably both, and Ishtar Woz, depending on where you read it. Thomas, his wife, his lover or his mother, which does put a slightly different spin on this story for their gods. They've never been too worried about this kind of thing in the past. Let's not worry about that too much. But Ishtar was a very senior goddess in Sumerian society. She was the goddess of both war on dhe love, that is,

Tom: who sides. It's a

Sam: kind of an odd period.

Tom: Two sides of the same coin.

Sam: Well, quite because she was strong, she was single minded. She demanded loyalty and bravery, and all of those are very important. When you're either gonna run into battle on someone's command or your trying to pull. I guess I think she also understood very much, and the Sumerians did as well. They were quite poetic about this kind of thing. That sometimes love itself is a bit of a battleground, I guess, particularly over whether to go for the dominoes or Papa John's or who's doing the washing up.

Tom: I thought Papa John's was a game for a moment there, Sam, when you said dominoes on, then I realized, What you talking about? I've never played Papa John's

Sam: Oh, it's a great game. You start by taking your pants down on back in each other's bottoms on shouting Papa John, Papa, John Pepper. Upper Job. Papa John, Invented by the Pope, Pope John

Tom: Best played with Andre Age Boys.

Sam: It'll schoolyard fun and games tub. It's kind of thing they play at Winchester College. Ishtar was exceptionally beautiful. She was always in full makeup and dressed to the nines because she was the original power boss on Dhe, she had an appalling temper. If anyone failed to worship her enough will show her enough loyalty. She would just destroy their kingdoms with the click of a finger, so she's absolutely not want to be messed with. If you think the devil wears Prada. You're kind of on the right lines with Ishtar. But she's lonely. Tom. She's lonely.

Tom: Maybe if he wasn't such a bitch

Sam: out. I think someone's about to get Smith. And I mean that in the biblical sense. Rather love sets. Actually, that really works, doesn't it? Smitten and smite ing a very similar thing. Finished. Ishtar was lonely. She wanted to get married and she had her eyes set on the god of farming. Who is Guy called in Qin. Do you know? Nice looking chap. Lots of land grows. Excellent grain.

Tom: Good with the pigs?

Sam: Well, well, no, because Thomas hears about this and he's having none of it because he is the god of shepherding and life star. And so, in Sumerian society he is way richer, more powerful. He is the big man and he says What? She can't marry this peasant God, Look at him.

Tom: He's got no sheep.

Sam: Yeah, he's got nothing. What if he's got grains? Great. You've got some land. Well, what do you do?

Tom: I've got goats.

Sam: Yes, eh, So he has a word with the stars, brother. The Sun God. And he says, Look put in a good word for me. This star is having absolutely none of this, though she has her mind set on in Kindu. And so at this point we get history's first known love poem, and it is called In Ana, which is another word for ish. Starks, the old word fresh start in on it prefers the farmer, so it's a fairly nice descriptive title does pretty much what it says on the Tin.

Tom: Is there a rhyme at some point in this poem with pajamas?

Sam: Yes, in honor in pajamas is going down the stairs in honor in pajamas. Is spreading love on dhe, the chaos of war everywhere.

Tom: Beautiful. Is that the poem?

Sam: Yes, it is. I'm not gonna read the poem cause quite a lot of it's missing. It's a really nice poem. Ode to the Perm starts by Stars brother, listing all the good points about Tambor's trying to sway his sister towards towards this more powerful God says he's loaded. He's got the best wine. He's got good oil, he makes good oil and he'll share it with you. And it's always summer when he's around. He's got a bright, sunny disposition is lovely and she says. No, it's, Starr says. I'm gonna go out with him. I'm not going to walk him to his blank or compliment him on his blank. At this point, the translation is unclear, in the words of missing. So you can add in your own words there.

Tom: It's interactive. That's good.

Sam: Yeah, it is. It's an interactive poem. I won't walked with him to his local spar or compliment him on his Penis.

Tom: Is that what usually happens when you walk so into the spar on a date? They end up showing me their Penis. I'm not aware of

Sam: it. Well, certain spars in certain parts of London. The air's fair. Enough. British, I says. No, no, I like the farmer. He's a knight. He's a nice lad. He's my choice and so timid steps up himself and says, Look, whatever he's got, I will give you far better. If he gives you a new will cloak, I will give both of you a sheep. If he gives you his good wine, I'll give you some milk, which seems like a fair exchange.

Tom: Yeah, that seems like that doesn't seem like an upgrade.

Sam: No, but then then he says and this is genuinely in the poem, he says. If he gives you his best wine, I'll give you my cottage cheese. That's which is for which is That's a deal, isn't it? I mean, whoa there. Put down the 89 Chateau Nerf to Pat Darling Daddy's Home and he's bought cottage cheese. We're having baked potatoes for dinner. Honey, take me now

Tom: on a low fat, high protein option to keep us trim indeed. Let me just clear this up. On one side, she's being offered a nice woolly jacket, a glass of wine.

Sam: So you got the farmer who's offering pretty much nothing. He's got some grain. He's got some white, right? That's pretty much it right. And he says, Oh, I will give you a cloak as well. And on the other hand, you've got this God saying we'll forget the clothes. I'll give you the bloody sheep and some milk. Jeez,

Tom: that sounds shitload. I'd rather have the cloak in the wine because, you know, once you got the sheep are fantastical goes from sheep.

Sam: What the fuck am I gonna do? We

Tom: Oh, what a cloak would be nice. Fucking gonna make it myself. I'd rather have the cloak.

Sam: Well, you know what they say, Tom. Give a God s a cloak and she'll be warm for a day. Teacher got us how to share a sheep spin yarn into world. Diet it on net and she'll be warm for a lifetime.

Tom: True, it is true. Some

Sam: We're only halfway through the poem because in Kindu says Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Who invited you to this match making session? Look Almeria! Yeah. And you? You can take your sheep. You can let them have my land. How about that? I will give you if you piss off now or my fields. And Tim was gets absolutely furious. And he says, Get out of there, mate. You can't compete with all this. You can't compete with my cottage cheese industry and Kindu gives in and he says, All right, fine. On depending on how you read the poem, he either says you can marry her or he says Almeria. But you can borrow her every now and now and then. And I'll give you some beans as well. What? Which is chivalrous and indeed the art of the deal.

Tom: That's very strange, isn't it? But she's

Sam: yes, the joys of lost languages. She

Tom: is the goddess of war. I'm not sure she's

Sam: war and love

Tom: or love. Does she want to be shared about

Sam: I? I suspect that she would have had something to say about this. Unfortunately, in the poem she doesn't but yet, and Kindu gives in and basically says, All right, I I can't compete backing off and that's the end of the poem. Timo says some nice things about her eyes, and its star thinks, Well, I've got to marry someone. This guy seems pretty driven, just like me. You know, we both got gold in life. We both want to destroy the world and make ever have lots of babies cheese and cottage cheese around. Yeah, on DSO they get married and buy many counts. Spent many happy years slash millennia together because apparently Tim O's ruled his kingdom for 26,000 years. So let's take these sources with a pinch of salt, shall we?

Tom: That's a good effort, isn't it? 26,000 years.

Sam: It is so they're very happy for years and years and years until one day Ishtar has to go on a trip to the underworld. She has to go to the funeral of her brother in law, the bull of heaven. But all the other gods are very suspicious of this because this is the goddess of war they're dealing with. And they're convinced that she's launching a coup in another miss. You actually really done this. She'd invaded heaven and had one and basically taken over. So they had another good reason to doubt as well. And that's because Ishtar came to the funeral dressed for war, which in her men, in her case, meant a nice dress and lots of Miss Kara and makeup. Because that was her battle dress. Yeah, forget armor. She just dressed to the nines like she was going on a date. And in fact, it's the same dress that she wore to go and visit all of her lovers, of which she had many being, of course, the goddess of love. She shared herself around Sasi. Is she? She's a modern woman. She's not afraid to go after what she wants. Tom.

Tom: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Sam: So the gods of the underworld, deeply suspicious. She's come to this funeral for her brother in law either dressed for a shag or dressed for a fight. You

Tom: never know dear. With her,

Sam: you never know. It's much like going out again in you.

Tom: It goes one way

Sam: or the other. Come 11 o'clock, all bets are off. So the gods of the underworld a rightly suspicious about what? Ishtar is up to you. But they hatch a cunning plan. They make her stop each of the seven gates of the underworld to remove an item of clothing so she gradually becomes naked. So by the time she reaches the others down in the center of hell for the funeral, she is completely naked. Aunt has apparently, as a result, lost all of her powers, and so they kill her immediately. The other gods get around her and they go full. Julius Caesar. They go Senate honor and absolutely ripped to shreds because obviously she's powerless without Kevlar cocktail dress anyway. So this is the god of love who has just been killed. Oh, and Boom! There's no one to look after love on Earth anymore. So everyone becomes infertile immediately and everyone stops caring about each other. Oh, all the marriages break down. There's chaos in the streets. You know royal families start to falter and kingdoms collapse. It is absolute chaos

Tom: on the slow side. Sam. Nobody starts fighting

Sam: well. No, that's true. There's no there's no water wars. But what have you got to fight for? If not love? Tom?

Tom: Oh, that was beautiful money that could be a John Lennon song.

Sam: Fortunately, someone sees sense. E. The God of wisdom sees what's going on, and he thinks our shit, We've done it now. There's gonna be no one left to worship us if no one's having babies. So he actually plan to revive Ishtar on dhe. This bit the stories lost. We don't know exactly what the plan is, but it works. She escapes and she heads home to the real world, where everything's back to normal. They're all shagging away like rabbits. All of the arguments for gotten bonking away. But there's a problem that needs resolving. There's a hole in the afterlife. There's a spot. No one can leave the afterlife. There's there's a set number of people down there, and when you die, you're down there and the number has to be right. Otherwise, chaos will reign so that gap needs filling.

Tom: Fuck wrote this force. Who the fuck wrote this story?

Sam: I know it's a bit of a bit of a kind of a convenient plot device that

Tom: absolutely. If you heard of these stories that you can, you can write online where everyone writes a paragraph and it just meanders its like a meandering story. That's what this is starting to sound like. It's just bonkers. It's going all over the place.

Sam: It's a great story. She goes to a funeral. They think she's there to invade the killer again. That No, I'm going back over to explain it to you. She went to the funeral. They killed her. Someone thought Oops. Mistake. They brought her back. But her place in the afterlife has to be filled. So what Poor sap is gonna get cast into hell to replace this goddess? Well, Ishtar is pretty furious. She is the goddess of war, and she is definitely on the fucking warpath. Now, on Dhe, she thinks the first person I see is gonna get it. But who does she come across? She comes across her manicurist. That is from the story. That's a quote. Her manicurist. Okay. Yeah. She comes across her manicurist, hairdresser but the poor. The poor Lash is devastated or what's happened, and she launches itself. Ishtar, crying and wailing because she's so pleased to see her again and its star thinks, Oh, well, bless her. That's sweet. No death for you today. I'm gonna I'm gonna save you for next time. And the same goes for Thomas's body guy who's very pleased to see hearing Oh, Queen, your back thinks right. No death for you either. Uh, here's port hammers himself. Now he's been having a way. Lever time, Tom. His wife's away at this funeral. He's got the palace to himself. Ishtar comes in. She sees him chilling out naked in the bath of cottage cheese, reading sheep in shepherding magazine. And she is king furious. Stop!

Tom: Oh, you was

Sam: She has had it. Absolutely. She launches right into him. Why didn't you call? I've been literally dead all day. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she says, Right, that is it. I have had it with you, mate, but these gods were talking about There's no sleeping on the sofa. When these guys fight, she summons a bunch of demons and they drag him straight down to hell

Tom: and he's got What does he do to defend himself so he can't summon up demons or anything? It cottage cheese is that not much use against the?

Sam: I think he probably holds a bit at it with a spoon. But no, he's, he's gone. He's down in the underworld. A few months passed and it stars. Finally, ready to forgive Old timer. She thinks I'll maybe I overreacted a little bit. Maybe condemning him to eternity in the afterlife is a bit much just for not really missing me as much as you should have done. She misses having him around on those special things he does with Shepherd's crook in the cottage cheese. And besides, without the God of shepherding all the sheep and goats, just wandering around aimlessly, chewing all the tapestries and causing a nuisance know every action has an equal opposite reaction in this world. Absolutely so she strikes a deal. She strikes a deal with Tomas's sister guest, the Ana, which means they'll swap places every so often. So guess Deanna will go down to the underworld for a few months, giving Tambor's a few months back. In the real world, where Ah, star can have him all to herself and they could be makes again. It seems like a bit of a compromise the underworld sorted to There's no chaos there on earth. Everything's back to normal.

Tom: So who's so that's really the sister that goes down for half the year. What is she? Is she a goddess of anything in particular? Either

Sam: she is a goddess. I don't know exactly what she's a goddess off.

Tom: So presumably something wind tree.

Sam: Yeah, well, I think that what? The Sun Bowl, The boulder is the son who died Waas Thomas's brother. So she might be kind of some kind of goddess of the sun why he didn't go to his brother's funeral. I don't know who sent his wife along. Instead, Basti sat in a bath. So for six months every year, Tamas returns from the underworld, and whenever he does, the herds of filled with new life and spring and summer arrive before he has to head back down to the underworld again for winter. And that is also the story of how seasons came to be. There you go, and the moral of the story is when your partner comes home looking like death. Show them a little care.

Tom: So that's it? That's a bizarre story. That is a really bizarre story.

Sam: It's a really weird story, but it is the first recorded love story.

Tom: Fantastic. And so tell me more about the same Arians. Sam. So you said they were between the Tigris and Euphrates to just say

Sam: Yeah, well, that's where they started out. Like a lot of these ancient civilizations Verte land, infertile land. Yeah, some of these cities, these absolutely ancient. The first, the first cities in the first civilisations, they had some really good but mad ideas. So some of them had cities that had no doors. So it was one giant building. The entire city was one giant building on. All of the doorways were in the roof, so it made it impossible to invade because you couldn't get up on the buildings. All they do is pull the ladders up, and suddenly you can't get into their city. Which is actually really clever idea. Really interesting civilization. Yeah, but very much very spiritual. Very much into their gods and very much into the power of women as well. So lots of very senior priest s is lots of very senior goddesses.

Tom: That's good. That's a good effort. We've gone old. I like it

Sam: That I think brings us towards the end of today's episode. Have you had fun, Tom?

Tom: I have indeed had fun. What were your thoughts the next week?

Sam: I was thinking about this. I think we should do stupidity next week.

Tom: Stupidity. Okay. It's their historical examples of great stupidity. I don't think it's gonna be hard.

Sam: I don't think we'll be short. Light is

Tom: exactly what I was gonna say. Something. Well,

Sam: that is pretty much it for us. Tune in next week for an episode on historical stupidity and in the meantime, do please follow us on social media. We're on Facebook and Instagram. If you search for that was genius and we are on Twitter as well. So do get in touch with us. Ah, Comment. Like follow. Subscribe All the normal things on. We will see you again next week. Say goodbye. Goodbye, Tom. 

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